Answering Stahala

Yes, it is quiet in Utepia this time of summer. Should we talk about Floyd's basketball camp? I don't think so.

But poster Stahala might have re-ignited a good old topic: Title IX. Does it discriminate against men?

Title IX is a federal law enacted in 1972. In the broad sense, it's mandated that women get their share of athletic scholarships and opportunities to compete in sports. That's college and high school.

The problem is no women's sport requires as many scholarships as football. So schools were mandated to show they were making at least a good effort at TRYING to even the playing field as much as possible. Virtually everyone did the bare minimum to pass the BARE MINIMUM test. It came down to money.

UTEP now has five men's and nine women's sports.

MEN:
football
basketball
cross country
golf
track & field.

WOMEN
basketball
cross country
golf
track & field
rifle
soccer
softball
volleyball
tennis

Note that around the country in 1972 schools (including high schools) had to find a sport(s) that had fairly large rosters, but didn't cost much.

Nobody played volleyball, save maybe Hawaii and California, in the U.S. in 1972. That sport was created for Title IX. Nobody even knew how to coach volleyball in 1972. Soccer was a good one to add, too. A lot of women played softball and tennis back them. Golf? Not so much. Basketball was awful in 1972. It's sure come a long way now.

A lot of schools had to cut men's sports and add women's sports.

UTEP had to cut men's tennis. And men's rifle became co-ed rifle — and is now just women's rifle.

No, UTEP did not cut baseball just because of Title IX. Baseball went away in the mid 1980s due to ... put it this way, nobody went to the games and it cost a lot of money to outfit a baseball team and provide enough scholarships to make the team competitive. UTEP has no baseball facility; it had used old Dudley Field and some crowds were counted in the dozens rather than hundreds or thousands.

Stahala's argument is not a new one. Recall that local businessmen got together and got baseball going at EPCC. The chant was we have so many great high school players so we should have a college team here. Well, where's the support for the Tejanos? There's not much.

Bottom line now: UTEP isn't making enough money to move football forward, much less have enough money to expand its minor sports. Baseball would be great. It's top-notch in the Big 12. UTEP's Conference USA has some good baseball. UTEP can't afford it. It would add the sport only if MANDATED by the conference it's in.

Note: only six of the nine Mountain West members play baseball. Wyoming, Colorado State and new member Boise State don't.

C-USA has been urging UTEP to add baseball, but to no avail. And you can't blame UTEP. It's the money.

Stahala asks if Title IX discriminates against men. You can look at that both ways.

But the bigger question is: Do you want to divy up the football-generated money and add any more teams in either men's or women's sports.

If that ever comes to pass at UTEP, and at other mid-level universities, ADs would be looking at a new women's sport before adding a men's sport.

 

Comments

[John C]

A community college does not draw much attention from professional scouts in baseball.

If UTEP were to establish a baseball program and find a reputable coach and staff, the vast talent centered in El Paso etc.. would be attracted to the program to gain exposure at a D-1 level program that competes in a quality conference. Professional baseball scouts look for talent at both the upper classmen and lower classman level because-------D-1 collegiate baseball is on par with AA or even AAA professional level.

There in lies the difference between D-1 full university programs and community college programs.

The problem that a D-1 collegiate level baseball program has is the cost of travel for 25 players that play on average 50-60 games per year.

Much to the suprise to many El Pasoans, El Paso is also home to two rookie or developmental professional baseball programs that play in the Continental League. These teams are in no way connected to the Diablos. They play at Franklin HS and the Community College fields.

[Stahala]

First of all, Thank you very much Joe. I have a good sense of the kind of responses I am going to get, but I'm gonna give it a shot anyways. Ok, so it all comes down to money.I get it. We had a baseball team in the 80s that nobody would support, but is that still the way it would be? Are you guys really going to tell me you wouldn't go watch UTEP vs Rice at Cohen Stadium? You would rather watch the Diablos vs the Fort Worth Cats? I mean if the Diablos could sustain itself why couldn't a UTEP team in a strong conference. People complain that CUSA is weak in basketball and football, yet in baseball its a strong conference and we don't have a team to compete with. It is embarrassing if anything else. Look asking for a Men's soccer team as well may be a stretch (though I'd rather watch say a UTEP-Houston Men's soccer match than an El Paso Patriot game), but being that we are in CUSA we should really push for baseball. Just like football or basketball, if it is a winning team people will go out and fill the stadium. Tell me I'm wrong. Imagine UTEP 1 game back and they can clinch a share of the title if they win at Cohen stadium against Tulsa, are you gonna tell me that game wont sell out? Not every game will be a sell out, but they can sell enough tickets, especially if they have a winning season.

Now I'm really going to piss some people off. If Title IX calls for equality, and the bottom line is money, we should get rid of softball or the Women's soccer team, maybe cut the rifle team too. I mean if its really equal between Men and Women, and money is what it all comes down to, why shouldn't we?

Men's soccer, eh, fine, maybe not. But UTEP, as a CUSA member, should definitely have a baseball team.

[CLEOFITZWITZ]

Two issues at hand here. Money and equality.

As far as money is concerned, UTEP doesn't have it. A D-1 baseball team would deserve it's own stadium. Millions to build and not much land to choose from. Playing at Cohen would be logistical nightmare with the Diablos schedule and would be inconvenient (transportation) for the Miners. I want a baseball team at UTEP as well, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. I hope I'm wrong.

As far as Title IX is concerned, I don't like it. I never have. I have had discussions with women who were all for it and was able to convince them that it wasn't fair. When a top level high school wrestler cannot find a school to compete at because so many are dropping their programs, there is a problem. I know a high school girl who was a mid level performer in track. She wasn't going anywhere. She ended up at UT Austin with a full ride competing in Women's Crew. A sport she never heard of but was able to score a scholarship in because UT Austin needed to fill some spots. Great for her. Not fair to the wrestler who had trained so hard to perfect his craft.

I'm all for fair treatment but I believe Title IX has had some unfortunate consequences for men. It has provided immense opportunities for women which is great. It's the men's side that needs a second look.

[John C]

I totally agree with Cleo:

A D-1 baseball program deserves its own stadium on campus-----UTEP women's has their own field on campus.

However, other D-1 baseball programs (NMSU is one of them) rents their field from the city. Memphis is in this catagory as is other CUSA schools that field a baseball team. It may not be necessary as long as the team practices on the same field that they play on.

I agree that Cohen is too far away for student athletes to commute daily. UTEP is land locked at this point for a baseball field on campus.

[Jennifer]

Of course Title IX discriminates against men!

It was designed that way by the man-hating feminists who wrote that horrible law. Part of the desired effect was to minimize men's sports.

The rise in women's sports, and in young women's interest in sports, was a complete surprise to the original planners, although they like to take credit now. What they really wanted was to hamstring the money spent on men's sport.

Also, cheerleading needs to be immediately made a sport. This event today is nothing short of team acrobatics and it needs to be covered by the rules, funding and safety requirements of all sports.

[John C]

Hope springs eternal!!!

UTEP could lobby to have ASARCO razed to help build a D-1 level baseball field. Maybe other city parks and recreation on that site.

[Stahala]

So then we at least agree that having a UTEP baseball team would be pretty cool, and that we would go support them? It also sounds like we agree that Title IX needs to be reformed? Would it be possible to rent a field from the city like in the mentioned scenarios? Is there any possible moves UTEP could make to get us a baseball team?

[NorT]

Here's a plan. Dump the sorry football team and get a first rate baseball team.

[DFW Miner]

El Paso can't even support the basketball team (win or lose). Do you all think a baseball team will have the support of the city? Considering it may not be competitive for 3-5 years, if ever. Let's support what we have now, FOOTBALL. Once the football program has the financial support of the city, then you can think about adding other sports. If you want a baseball team, you would have too add other women's sport(s) under the current rules. Put your money where your mouth is, El Paso!! Go MINERS!!!

[Eric]

@ John C.
NMSU plays on campus. NMSU doesn't rent anything from the city. All owned. Maybe other schools do but not NMSU.

[wild west]

Attention baseball Aficiandos: El Paso needs college baseball at UTEP; El Paso needs a Triple(AAA) MLB team as well.

Can you imagine UTEP playing CUSA Rice/UH every year, and non conference teams like TCU, ASU,UA Texas, UNM, A&M, Baylor, etc ; can you imagine what that would do for our city? Can you imagine having an annual sun baseball classic and invite Texas, UH, ASU, Rice, TT, etc..wow

The frustration for me now is that I have to drive to Las Cruces, Tucson, Phoenix, Albuquerque, Lubbock, Austin or Houston to see D1 College baseball; Yes its great to have EPCC JUCO and High School baseball in town; Another frustration for baseball fans is that El Paso is surrounded by MLB minor league teams in Tucson, Albuquerque and Round Rock but nothng in El Paso.
If El Paso is to become this all american, big time city, we need D1 College baseball and AAA minor League baseball, now; How embarassing that all these cities around us have all these amenities and we dont.

[Golden State]

I agree with one of the above bloggers and second dumping the football team. We could have a top basketball team with what UTEP pours into football. Take half of those monies and build a good baseball team.

Heck, even the Aggie baseball team is making into the top 30 just about every year and they don't have much funding. We could at least do that well.

[Stahala]

@DFW What are you crazy? Support the football team over the basketball team. Hell no. UTEP is all about basketball, and its evident when we have suggestions about dumping the football team. This town doesn't support the basketball team? Please. Almost all the games at the Don next season will be sold out.

I absolutely believe UTEP can recruit a strong group of players to be competitive in an exciting baseball conference. I also believe this town would be more enthused about coming out to see some quality D-1 college baseball, than they are about seeing the Diablos.

Title IX reform would make it much easier for UTEP to end the embarrassment of not having a baseball team. NMSU has a baseball team for god sakes. I understand it will cost the university money, but part of the cost currently being calculated for having a baseball team are the additional costs of adding more women's sports. If Title IX was reformed, that cost would no longer be an obstacle, and UTEP can improve its overall image.

LETS REFORM TITLE IX! MEN DESERVE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY IN COLLEGE SPORTS!

[DFW Miner]

@Stahala, Sure the hiring of Tim Floyd has created some new excitement (which is great). I hope this lasts for as long as he's the coach and not whether the team is winning. We all expect CTF to build a winner, look at potential recruits for 2011 on ESPN.

All I'm saying is as long as the rules (title IX) stay the way they are now, football needs to be the money maker, and thus needs the support of the city if you want a baseball team. Go Miners!!!

[John C]

I personally would rather watch and support a D-1 baseball program at UTEP than The Diablos. I am an alumni from UTEP.

I am also an alumni from Texas Tech where I was a 4-yr letterman in baseball (D-1 program) although too many years ago to mention.

Collegiate baseball has come along way in the recent years and most of the collegiate players all have asperations of continuing in the pro ranks. Some opt for a four year college and turn down pro offers out of HS or CC.

El Paso currently has two rookie or developmental professional league teams that play in the Continental Baseball League that are in no way connected to the Diablos. I watch them play and I believe they are playing at a higher level than the Diablos. They are mostly rookies out of college (most are not from a D-1 school however).

Las Cruces has NMSU (a D-1 level program) and a professional team that plays in the same Continental League as does the two from El Paso. AS I mentioned most are former collegiate players allbeit from smaller schools.

I beleieve they are playing at a higer level than
The Diablos and most will be called up to AA or AAA level teams after one season or some development.

El Paso/Las Cruces is a hot bed of talent for baseball.

I think that UTEP should lobby the City of El Paso to have ASARCO razed (blow the smoke stack down!!) and let the university buy the land or lease it back to UTEP for a D-1 level baseball field!!!

Yes I am a fan of UTEP basketball and football, however there should and could be a D-1 level baseball program at UTEP along with football and basketball.

[Brazen Bill]

I have to agree with John C. UTEP should have a D1 level baseball team. Both NMSU and UNM have D! teams that would be natural rivals. That would bring fans to El Paso, Las Cruces, and Abq, and would bring more fan dollars.

I do not believe that in the current economic climate UTEP administration will be able to find the funding dollars necessary. A few years into the future, it would be more than just a possibility.

[John C]

Change of subject back to basketball:

Miner Rush has posted that Tim Floyd has hired the Heat Academy Coach Jason Niblett as the the third assistant for UTEP.

CTF obtained quality recruits Desmond Lee and Michael Haynes from this prep school.

http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/article.cfm?ID=24309

[John C]

Change of subject back to baseball:

If UTEP had a D-1 level baseball program (playing on campus or from a rented facility)and a local professional team (some people have mentioned a AAA level franchise) and El Pasoans showed support for both, El Paso Convention and Visitors Bureau could lobby major league professional league teams to play spring training games in El Paso.

These major league professional teams train in both Phoenix and Tucson------why not some games in El Paso!!!

[axe man]

I heard colorado of the pac 10 doesnt have a baseball team. I bet they start one soon.

I have always question why we dont start up a baseball program or even a soccer team. These are the two sports we have a shot at a national title based on location and recruiting. If fresno state can do so can we...

I nominate stahala to spearhead the operation. Start a petition website i'll sign it...

[John C]

The only school in Colorado that plays baseball is Air Force. Colorado State, Wyoming, University of Colorado, Boise State do not field a baseball team.

These schools have a skiing team although, and Denver University has a hocky team that usually competes for NCAA championship.

One could say that these are all Northern States Universities and its way too cold to play baseball during the late winter and spring months---however Utah and BYU have baseball programs.

The schools that do not play baseball have mostly opted to construct indoor practice facilities for football.

[wild west]

fyi, Northern Colorado has a D1 baseball team(nobody really cares) and CSU has a club baseball team and has won several national titles; utep should at least start at that level

UTEP needs to develop a five year plan and figure out a way to finance a baseball program beginning 2015; second, the City of El paso use to have AA minor league baseball affiliate Arizona Diamondbacks in 2004 but the city was not aggressive enough to get another team into El Paso, so we have independent baseball.....Ideally we need a Tripe A minor league team here to compete with cities of Tucson, Albuquerque and Round Rock teams....Heck, B Henry could manage the AA or AA teams...

Also the baseball power brokers need to create a annual Sun baseball JUCO classic in March and invite juco teams like Yavapai, San Jacinto, Howard, EPCC, NMJC, etc; IN addition, they could create an Annual D1 sun classic baseball tournament and invite UNM, TT, UT, Rice, UH, ASU, etc; we would have two baseball tournaments per year.....

Is there a group of baseball fanatics that want to organize and push for baseball in El Paso, ... count me in;

[Barry]

@ John C. You said D-1 collegiate baseball is on par with AA or even AAA professional level????

You have to be joking.

[John C]

A D-1 large school baseball program is at the AA level and some of the players will go onto play at the AAA level after developmental program within the professional organization.

A long time El Pasoan---Larry Stubing; "Moose" Stubing was an on-field manager for the LA/Anaheim Angels and he would recruit the collegiate ranks.

A quality player from a large D-1 school with some developmental league play subsequent to collegiate career would land in the AA or AAA ranks. They might not rise above this level to the majors unless the player was exceptional.

A D-1 player who exhausts collegiate eligibility is usually 22-24 years old. This is the age that most are considered to be brought up to the parent club after some time in the developmental leagues, AA or AAA level.

[Barry]

John, If D1 Baseball as on par with AA baseball then every college player would get drafted. Sorry, your wrong.

[John C]

Barry:

I am in no way making an argument. This comment will be my last on this subject!!!

I want to point out that this PM the Futures all star game was televised on ESPN. This is an all-star game of minor leaguers (A-AAA level ages 19-24yrs old).

The USA team was comprised of US originated players and the World team comprised of foreign originated players.

The majority of the USA team were college graduates as mentioned by the ESPN broadcasters (a few were 19-20 drafted out of high school).

The USA team was mostly 22-24 yrs old and played collegiate ball. This is the trend in the last 10 yrs. --------Get an education with your baseball skills which will last a life time.

Most of those who play professionally will not make the majors and if one now days elects to go play professional ball out of high school, he will have to get a college degree on their own when playing days are over. The pay for these minor leaguers in not really enough to live on even at the AA or AAA level. They have to be called up to the majors at a young age 22-25 max if they are to make professional baseball a career.

Only the exceptional out of the AA-AAA get called up to the majors. Some get called up and some get pushed down or out.

Not all that play professionally will play like AROD, Pulhos, Jetter, etc....